Debate Relate





Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 6 posts ] 
Do we have the Separation of Church and State in Australia? 
Author Message
Convict
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2010 11:45 am
Posts: 219
Location: twitter.com/senexx/ or Facebook
Post Do we have the Separation of Church and State in Australia?
Do we have the Separation of Church and State in Australia?

This seems to be one for Capt_Starlight as the only information that I can find that alludes to it the High Court Defence of Government Schools (DOGS) case and the Australian Constitution.

According to Max Wallace, the author of “The Purple Economy: the supernatural, tax and culture”

Quote:



the only section in our constitution dealing with religion, section 116, does not state there is a separation of church and state in Australia. The founding fathers intended separation but section 116 does not spell it out.



What has got under nearly everyone’s radar is the fact that in 1981 the High Court in the Defence of Government Schools (DOGS) case interpreted section 116 to mean there is no separation of church and state in Australia. The Court deliberately eschewed the US Supreme Court’s interpretation of the First Amendment of the US Constitution in the Everson case of 1947 confirming a “wall of separation”.

I say the DOGS 6-1 decision (with Lionel Murphy dissenting) was a political coup more serious than the Whitlam sacking. The judges who split hairs over the meaning of small words in section 116 to distinguish the section from its derivation in the First Amendment were faced with a constitutional fork in the road. Either (a) section 116 entailed separation of church and state with inevitable republican consequences, especially the matter over which the case was fought, the funding of religious schools, or (b) it could be given a black letter law interpretation which allowed the funding to flow (unlike in the US) and the implied threat to Constitutional Monarchy government could be quietly scuttled.

The six judges who had all been knighted not surprisingly chose the latter course. I say when they accepted knighthoods they compromised themselves if and when an issue with republican consequences came before them. That is what happened.


The short answer is 'No, we do not have separation of church and State in Australia'.

Capt_Starlight may be able to correct any errors in Max's assertions or lead us down a more legally correct path.

_________________
A slave to some defunct economist.


Fri Feb 26, 2010 5:50 pm
Profile WWW
Australian
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 19, 2006 11:22 am
Posts: 7741
Post Re: Do we have the Separation of Church and State in Australia?
Section 116 was also touched in the case of Kruger v Commonwealth ("Stolen Generations case") [1997] HCA 27; (1997) 190 CLR 1; (1997) 146 ALR 126; (1997) 71 ALJR 991 (31 July 1997).

How Mr Wallace divined the intent of the 'founding fathers' as distinct from the actual wording is not mentioned in the above quote. They may well have anticipated troubles from the Irish and the Catholics if they attempted to "establish" anything other that the Church of Rome and visa versa for each of the Protestant sects. This could have imperilled the Federation so was adopted.

In regard to the DOGS case, Barwick CJ was a literalistic as were many of his court at the time (and many have returned to over the period of the Howard years).

There may well be a "re-interpretation" depending on the make-up of the court in the future. It is not unknown.

As it currently stands, there is no Freedom of Religion, only that the Commonwealth cannot "establish" one - ie make it the favoured or compulsory one on grounds that it is a particular religion. Catholic schools have traditionally received more money per head (in general) than others because they tended to be in the lower socio-economic areas but a combination of growing affluence and "redressing the balance" under Howard have meant that the balance is less in their favour.

As an aside, there have been periodic attempts to ban Scientology for instance on the grounds that it was not a religion BUT they are still regarded as a religion (and so the definitions of what constitutes one have started to be evolved).

_________________
Propino tibi salutem!
Frank

"Trust, but Verify" ("Доверяй, но проверяй") apparently favourite saying of Felix Edmundovich Dzerzhinsky and Ronald Regan

"Lack of pies, its just pit nicking!" Me


Last edited by Capt_Starlight on Mon Mar 01, 2010 3:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Mon Mar 01, 2010 2:56 pm
Profile
Australian
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2008 8:41 am
Posts: 5803
Post Re: Do we have the Separation of Church and State in Australia?
I'm pretty sure you cannot have full separation of church and state in Australia as long as the Queen is the head of state. She is the Supreme Governor of the Church of England.

_________________
"I try to keep an open mind, but not so open my brains fall out." -Harold T. Stone


Mon Mar 01, 2010 2:59 pm
Profile
Australian
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 25, 2007 2:04 pm
Posts: 2637
Post Re: Do we have the Separation of Church and State in Australia?
Whatever the legal technicalities, for practical purposes we do not have separation of church and state. The Labor schism and the rise of the DLP for example. More recently, NSW Labor - a group of right wing catholics seems to be in control, the influence of Hillsong church among certain politicians, the growing islamic influence in certain areas. I'm sure there are others we could think of, all having an influence on the political landscape.

Having said that though, Austrlia is probably the most secular of all the developed nations.


Mon Mar 01, 2010 4:42 pm
Profile
Pioneer

Joined: Sat Jan 06, 2007 2:58 pm
Posts: 1319
Location: Australia
Post Re: Do we have the Separation of Church and State in Australia?
Australia is one of the most secular countries in the Western world. The United States is Christian fundamentalist at its extreme in comparison to Australia. The last time I went to church, the priest was smirking about certain aspects of the bible. More than once I heard him laugh "Hey, check this shit out". And the congregation didn't say "Amen" at the end of the sermon. They said "Yeah right".


Mon Mar 01, 2010 6:42 pm
Profile
Convict
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2010 11:45 am
Posts: 219
Location: twitter.com/senexx/ or Facebook
Post Re: Do we have the Separation of Church and State in Australia?
Capt_Starlight wrote:
As it currently stands, there is no Freedom of Religion, only that the Commonwealth cannot "establish" one - ie make it the favoured or compulsory one on grounds that it is a particular religion. Catholic schools have traditionally received more money per head (in general) than others because they tended to be in the lower socio-economic areas but a combination of growing affluence and "redressing the balance" under Howard have meant that the balance is less in their favour.

As an aside, there have been periodic attempts to ban Scientology for instance on the grounds that it was not a religion BUT they are still regarded as a religion (and so the definitions of what constitutes one have started to be evolved).


This conclusion was also eventually pointed out to me. It is a tough one to crack as it has a little bit of tough nuance in it.

"Section 116 of the constitution only prohibits the establishment of a state religion or favouring one religion over another. But depending on what one means by a separation of church and state, that is pretty damn close."

I can accept that argument. Well, right up until the point someone gives me a counterargument to it that I can accept.

Capt_Starlight wrote:
Section 116 was also touched in the case of Kruger v Commonwealth ("Stolen Generations case") [1997] HCA 27; (1997) 190 CLR 1; (1997) 146 ALR 126; (1997) 71 ALJR 991 (31 July 1997).


And what did it say or suggest?

_________________
A slave to some defunct economist.


Sat Mar 06, 2010 12:12 pm
Profile WWW
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 6 posts ] 


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.
Designed by Vjacheslav Trushkin for Free Forum/DivisionCore.